The trouble with using drogues and sea anchors - Skip Novak's Storm Sailing | Yachting World
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- Опубликовано: 8 апр 2014
- In this video, expedition guru Skip Novak addresses the effectiveness of warps and drogues when it comes to breaking seas in a storm
www.yachtingworld.com/storm-sailing-techniques
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Skip makes very good points about load factors and the danger of handling gear on a large, heavy boat in severe conditions. What makes perfect sense on his boats in his waters may be different on a smaller boat, a Contessa 32 perhaps, in an open-ocean storm. I suppose a good seaman is one who can adapt to the situation, the boat, the skill level of the crew, the equipment available...
Skip Novak is what I thought I looked like when I was in the Sea Scouts. In reality I was lucky not to ground the ship on the Dana Point Harbor jetty.
when the intro is longer than the actual discussion...
Oh okay, no need to consider these options since Skip Novak has never needed to use them. Gosh that's a relief. Thanks Yacht World you're the best. 😂
LOL!!!
One has to appreciate this video on its merits. If your experience in these conditions exceeds Skip's, then, by all means, speak up. Otherwise, in this highly unpredictable world, it's worth pondering his views. I think that is what this short video is about.
Boats of the size and type that Skip sails are worlds apart from some smaller boats. Heave to in a small boat could leave you vulnerable to being rolled 360. Note Skips caveat in his dialogue. cindyreid6404 maybe you sail boats similar or bigger than Skips.
Sea anchors work well in small cruisers. They're not that hard to handle. Drogues are a different story, those things are scary. I do agree with hove to over drogues though.
So interesting to listen to such an experienced sailor. Thanks for a great instructional video.
Heaving to really is a simple option if the particular boat at play holds well,
and the bow doesn't drift too far down to expose the boat dangerously to abeam waves and wind. In that case the hassle of the sea anchor and practiced drills will prove worthy to keep the bow up.
As for streaming warps to slow the boat and thus control it better when running with a storm and waves it will depend on crew skill and energy if it's good to deploy. And anyway is only done when destination is downwind and safe enough to still steer. Otherwise forereaching is the way in storms to put the boat with bow into elements as it's designed to do. Or if crew fatigue drops more to heave to as the leeward drift will feather waves. Not like lying ahull which is only safe in smaller wave conditions.
Multiple valid perspectives here. For me the heave-to is under-represented in the modern sailing courses and the instruction I have received. It can be the first stage in a MoB, good for some peace and quiet, sorting out mainsail issues, reefing the main, laying out to sea in a storm. I always do a h-t drill with newcomers and they are always surprised by how effective it is. I agree some boats don't do it very well, but all good boats do it (discuss?). So, more on heaving-to. To his concerns about recovering drogues and streaming warps .... on the few occasions I have practised streaming warps I hove-to to recover them and pulled them in on the genoa winch. I have never used them in a real blow though. Skip's reasoning here gives reason to question the practice before you do. If you h-t, try backing the foresail with the lazy jib sheet to avoid having to tack in a big sea. Finally, make sure you end up on starboard tack so you have right-of-way.
"I agree some boats don't do it very well, but all good boats do it (discuss?)."
My opinion? If your boat won't heave to, you need a different boat.
It takes quite a long keel to heave to well.
Great advice thanks mate great stuff
Found it very hard to recover a drogue the first time. Later rigged a tripping line, as you would with a conventional anchor, and found it easy to retrieve the thing. It is a must in a following sea.
Great tips, thanks
Thanks for talking about them
Might keep looking for people
who have used them successfully
(lived to tell, even if went badly)
Here's 1.5hr textbook like backGround from
MaryLand School of Sailing
ruclips.net/video/4SAXRH42Df0/видео.html
Very good, thank you.
Much rrspect to Skips opinion but I think havung someone who is familiar with the tactics to display them properly. Someone could benefit from the information.
Lungarotta The issue is Morganscloud is paid to sell specific product and concepts. they frequently omit data about competing concepts. You also have to pay to be a member.
Very few people have any experience in this and their situation is unique to that boat at the time. If anyone is an expert in this it tells me they are not good at voyage planning.
@@dulls8475 here in Scandinavia, in some season, the weather forecasts are reliable 100% at 6 hours, 60% at 24 hours and 10% at 36 hours, and a crystal ball is the best instrument for meteorologists... Plan for the worse and hope for the best.
P.S. find me someone who has not been screwed by weather forecasts during long crossings... and I'll start to believe in miracles 😊
@@lambertoazzi7883 We all have but it is not common.
So you guys did a video about sea anchor using a captain that never used a boat that can use it. Pretty smart don't you think?
Well maybe, just maybe that’s their point, saying that if someone who has the amount of sea miles under his belt as Skip Novak has, a man who runs charters around Cape Horn has never felt the need to use one then maybe they are overrated and possibly offer false security?
Then again maybe SN wouldn’t be on ocean passages in a Beneteau/Bavaria/floating caravan to start with so hence has never needed to resort to the drastic measures he describes.
20 years ago I used an improvised drogue in an heavy storm in the Atlantic in a light catamaran... it gave us a few nights of rest and reduced the drifting between us and Cap Blanc that was only 200 miles downwind... after 3 days those 200 miles where 70 only but at the right angle to get refuge in Jorf Lasfar industrial harbour without kissing the African coast.
That "drogue" has been priceless and I would have loved to have a real one along...
As always... "It depends"
The Gale Rider by Hathaway Reiser and Raymond is a webbed basket drogue supplied to the Coast Guard for when they are Towing boats in seas
To me, the problem with employing a drogue or sea anchor aft in heavy seas when choosing to run with them is that wave frequencies are never constant and setting the drogue to leave you ever sailing down the crest of a wave is difficult. Sooner or later (and it'll be sooner, at night) you'll crash down into a trough or get pooped, and in huge seas, that's a problem. Lin and Larry Pardey had success heaving to with a sea anchor off the bow. Most of the time, heaving to should be our go-to, followed by bare poles imho.
Anchor point seems to be the critical link in this chain, if you're pulling against a raging Sea, something is likely to fail and catastrophicly.
I would think this system is best utilized for crew breaks in mild to moderate seas?
Not all boats sit quietly hove to and many come beam on to the seas, as for bare poles no thanks.
I've used warps in anger (Granted not in the southern ocean but in Biscay in a 3 day storm F8 to F10) and it worked well though as the wind and therefore the seastate changes their effectivness also changes for better or worse.
Re-attachment points I streamed from the stern and the warps were secured on the sampson post at the bow so the ropes are all around the deck and mast.
For adjustment I hand 2 choices :
1) add things to the drogues eg. fenders,anchors fuel containers
2 ) CUT the drougue, you can't bring it back in.
Hope this helps someone as an option when praying to imaginary friends is about your only other choice :)
Note:Boat was a Rival 31 with 200M searoom before the continental shelf.
This video is kind. Make good decisions out there.
May be worth carrying a Galerider style drogue for emergency steering, in the event of rudder failure, if not for heavy weather.
As for sea anchors Lin and Larry Pardey found them to be the best heavy weather option, employed with a line run back to a primary winch from a snatch block on the rode to control the vessel's angle to weather. I've never tried the technique but presumably one could deploy the rig without dangerous or damaging loads by first heaving-to.
Skip is only talking from his zero experience of using a drogue or sea anchor.
He seems to like speed and plenty of crew, fine but for single handed cruising sailors well prepared with packed kit ready to deploy sea anchor or a jordon series drogue is a life safer.
I do agree, I used the sea anchor twice and it helped me saving my ship and crew of two! Question is did you prepared in time to deploy your kit or waited till the last minutes?
Yes, perhaps. Good luck to the poor skipper in the situation!
Moitessier would disagree with you. He was in significant seas and felt his Joshua did better downwind without the warps behind him.
@@highnotesailing5843 joshua was a pretty heavy boat 40 foot heavy built steel.
Yes Bernard used a method of scudding at a good rate of knots but it required his hand on the helm at all times.
This procedure he reserved for the very worst conditions of the southern pacific.
It was not his orginal idea but used the experiencec and writings of Vito Dumas.
Bernards technique was to strip all sail down , tow no drags on these occasions waiting for the steep following sea then he would head Joshua up a little till the stern was 15/20 degrees from been square to the seas holding course till crest had passed and in the trough. He reakoned this inhibit surving and potential broach.
He kept joshua moving fast to almost hull speed to ensure good steering control.
This is what he claimed and if it worked for him it might for others but in a lengthy storm wd prove to be exhausting.
Bernard towed warps on other occasions in different concitions too.
So surprised to hear Skip suggest lying ahull. That is something I would never consider. Our bridal is mounted at the stern and ready to go on long passages (secured with breakaway zipties for fair deployment), so launching our series drogue isn't as problem.
For large displacement “fuller keel” boats H-Too yeah but for those of us on smaller lighter boats a Para-Anchor makes sense.
Look at some very small boat voyages like Robert Manry “13’ Tinkerbelle he sailed Massachusetts to England and deployed his canvas bucket sea anchor over a dozen times to ride out a gale.
A sea anchor can stabilize the boat if something breaks or a single hand can get some rest.
I just got a 6’ Fiorentino Para anchor and will do some testing in the next coming weeks (17’ Lyle Hess designed sloop”
What is the name of music.
Hello Skip Novak the man from Cook County Illinois. The Cook County Church Building Contractors have refurbished some of that amazing Architecture found there. Your Church is a lot bigger! A sea anchor is a bucket on a rope, tied to the bow to keep the ship headed into the storm. Never used one but the idea stuck with me. He man no more. Muscle, Bone Cardio makes my day. Now for another made for TV Sea Hunt in black and white. Black and white makes watching easy. Cook County, Skip Novak and Sea Hunt: what a day. Had a day, Brian just a fat boy Brian
it can but very rarely get to a point were you cannot have any sail up and you can only ride it out having a line over the side as a loop. this loop drags across the surface and smooths out the sea reducing the chances of a wave breaking over you dramatically
The line don't smooth out the sea it slows your forward momentum so you can control the vessel and reduce your boat to its hull speed. The faster you go the greater chance for you to broach if running.
What you describe here is the tactics I used in a storm F8-F10 in the bay of Biscay in aug.1980. Two ropes 100m each in a loop behind the boat, a small stormjib flat sheeted fore and aft for the wind to knock the boat back on course and the selfstearing gear handled the rest. The storm lasted for three days, but only once the cockpit was half filled with water. I sailed alone in my Fairey Atalanta 26 feet of plywood and twin keels. This is my film from the trip. ruclips.net/video/sJoDTu7CoRQ/видео.html
I would also add that in my tiny experience heaving to off the bow may slow the boat down better than a series drogue or trailing warps. If sea room is an issue i would go off the bow. Also running before a storm keeps you in it longer methinks.
It seems tho that if sea room is an issue streaming it off the bow might also make you end up having to retrieve or abandon the drogue when coming close to shore.
@@1tanou Well if sea room is an issue and going to windward is impossible for the conditions a sea anchor will buy you time....then you may have to cut it but the alternative might be worse.
I would be interested in his opinion in the case of a lost rudder. Genuinely curious.
Easy, he carries a spare. lol
Spmme guys sailing a cat from NZ to Tonga lost their rudder They sailed 350NM using a milk crate warped off the back for steering
Moitessier never used a drogue. What's that tell you? I mean this guy sailed around the horn a coupla times in some of the biggest seas imaginable. I also knew someone that made the same trip and he did not use a drogue either. These were both double-enders that do NOT handle a following sea very well. however they were also mid ship cockpit steel, deep keeled boats as well. My good friend's though was a bit shorter than the Joshua (but what a boat that was I mean it plowed through a 15 foot sea like it was nothing). He got caught in Hurricane Donna in 60 as a Cat 4 because it was so humongous that he couldn't outrun it. I can't even imagine that myself. Said he didn't sleep a wink in 3 days. Not me.
like he said, heaving to .... but what would be wrong with also carrying a series drogue 1/2 to a 1/3 the recommended, and two or three different lighter weights to put on the end ???
I just read through many of the comments and until now I had though sailors were a little less snarky than other internet trolls. You folks can choose to differ your opinions but the sniping is unattractive.
Heave- o in order to deploy series drogues. I believe there is Coast Guard study that proves this is the best method in heavy waves...wind....
What does "heav-O" mean?
I 've used drogues, it's easy to deploy them but impossible to recover(except with a knife) It's ok on a 50/60' boat with a full crew and lots of sea room to say never use them, but single-handed on a 30'displacement vessel I would do it again.
The main problem I found was that during a storm the wind strength and therefore wavelength of the waves changes and so what works after 10 hrs no longer works after 15 hrs and then as the sea changes it suddenly works again.
chris topher - If you need to easily recover a drogue you need to either
A) Buy an easily recoverable drogue that requires no tripling, or
B) send out a tripline with the drogue.
Tripline: a secondary line with 50ft+ of slack, attached to the rear of the drogue. When you want to recover the drogue, you pull the tripline in so the drogue is retrieved in its reverse action.
@@castorscadence2113 look at bulletpoint B... that's what the or is referring to...
@@strikeforcek9149 Thank you , you've answered my question already . I've never deployed one either , but reading Chris's comment my first thought was a trip line , i was just wondering if i was missing something .
@@mickey1299 Yeah, just a simple reverse/inside-out tripline (that's what I call them anyways. Llots of other people call them 'Recovery lines' or 'access lines', etc. But, I'm sure they catch what I'm saying. Hehe)
@@strikeforcek9149 Yeah i know what ya saying . I gotta be honest , i'm kinda surprise their not already fitted . Recovery without one is always gonna be difficult , purely because your working against what the dam things are designed to do in the first place .
The other thing i find rather amiss are the comment's that Skip's never actually deployed one . Now i've not seen the video yet , and to be honest from what i'm reading , i may not bother . But i can't understand how anyone can comment on something that they've never used , it's flawed information . I've seen a couple of his video's and like many who already do , began to respect his opinion , but this seems to me an own goal .
So the more I watch videos from thus channel the more I f8nd good and bad. Good because I definitely learn a lot, but bad because things are taken in a very narrow scope or not as much stuff is shown that I think should be. For example in relation to this video, 99% of sailors I've seen anticipate the potential for a bad storm and deploy drouges or sea anchors early before it becomes too dangerous to do so, or they are knowingly and purposely sailing into a dangerous storm and are prepared for how to handle it before they do. This video was obviously aimed at those who DON'T have the ability to be prepared beforehand, so maybe more time should been spent explaining the uses and the safe way to deploy them for peo0le who don't know, or alternative actions. Heaving to is not possible on some boats, and it can be nearly impossible 9n may boats if the storm is bad enough, so maybe talk more about h9w to deal with that if you d9nt think the other options are good. All I learned from this video is you're too smart to get caught in a storm bad enough to need them, or too stubborn to use them if you do. Zim the video at people this doesn't apply to I think.
looking at series drogues, i always see these "recipes" ( weight, length of rode, and number of chutes ), and some people refer to series drogues as "stopping drogues"..
but why couldn't you make a series drogue differently ? Or, use the same one differently, ( depending on the weight you attach, and how many chutes you let out ) ???
even heaving to... i think i would be better to have a tune-able brake .... though the series format seems the most flexible, it is yet the most stringent as to construction and use, why???
It fails to describe the equipment and tactics. It assumes that you already know what warps and drogues are,
Not sure how you’d even end up watching this video if you didn’t know what warps and drogues are
@@bertieblackman8791 Maybe you're here to learn what they are.
@@bertieblackman8791 I am that man 🤣
I have seen that you can use a drogue to steer should all other methods of steerage fail. Seems like a handy piece of equipment to have on board during an ocean passage.
I recently watched someome have to steer a thousand miles using a bit of a homemade drogue because their rudder broke.
All I'll will say is if you deploy a drogue keep your fingers, arms & legs clear or you will lose them!
I have had a sail over the side while hove to. We had been knocked down and i decided we needed to bring the bow round more as we hove to. I expected the sail to lie about 45 decrees off the port bow at the time as i had read the Pardies book on heaving to. I had a long keel double ender and we were in the Tasman. The sail instead lay about aft of the stern on the port quarter about 50 metres behind and did not really bring my bow round. The only sail we had up was a storm tri sail with tiller lashed. I had prepared the set up before the bad weather hit so dropping it over the side was all we had to do. We were not knocked down again but that may have nothing to do with us putting out a sea anchor in the form of a sail. The most important thing was the psychology. We had felt we had done something to ease our situation. Who knows if it had the effect we wanted. We could not get the fabled slick to protect us either.
I now realise that what worked for the Pardies most probably will not relate to your boat in anyway unless you have a Lyle Hess cutter. The important thing is to have some options up your sleeve that may or may not improve your situation. Doing something does improve your mind set though. I have hove too a number of times but this is the only time i put a sea anchor out. So my experience in this is very tiny. Funnily enough I had a cargo chute but went with the sail as it was damaged and i thought i might be able to retrieve it.
Interesting. So you deployed the sea anchor at the bow and it drifted astern of you? But this was a sail not a parachute anchor right? What was your boat? We have a double ender, Roughwater 33, and I was looking forward to practicing these tactics before we head off.
@@squarerigapprentice Sorry for not replying. No bell alert for some reason.
She was a vagabond 31 and a Scandinavian long keel with cut away forefoot. Yes I used a sail which might not have been as effective. It lay off my port quarter about 50 m plus away. The angle was such that there was no danger of it fouling the boat. I think that each boat is different. If you do test find some flat seas with plenty of wind. So in the lee of the land but far enough out to have the wind. Did you do some practices and how did it turn out? I had a huge cargo shoot and opted not to go with that as i thought i might not get it in. Retrieval is the biggest issue in some ways.
@@dulls8475 I havn't had a chance to try yet, but since buying our boat have experimented with heaving to under sail in moderate wind and she does it really well. Balances nicely. Looking forward to getting a para-anchor and trying out the Combination, we have an excellent spot here to practice in front of Victoria, BC in the Juan de fuca straight. There are varying stages of protection from the open straights as you head out, it's a good place to experiment with different conditions. Still not to be trifled with as with any body of water, there are some wicked tide rips around a nearby island that create a very confused sea if you go to close.
@@squarerigapprentice The most important thing is to deploy early. We changed from a triple reef main to a storm trysail. In hindsight we shout have put the trysail up earlier. It helped the boat point up a little more again. We had the sea anchor ready to go apart form I disconnected the cargo Shute and instead put a damaged jib on. It was all prepared in the harbour before we left. Keep in touch and tell me what you find.
When more skip novak videos?
Let's talk apples and apples jorden series drogue ? after watching Skip I practiced my hove to and i'm seriously thinking about four reefs But I really do wanna hear more information on the JSD
Are you saying "stream warps over the side?" I know what a drogue is but haven't heard of this other thing you speak of.
Best way is to put a warp out in a bite. The old hairy warps were best. So a line form port cleat to stbd cleat. I have never tried it but that is the theory.
Perhaps this video was best left in the camera.
Even if I am heaved too I still need to deploy a drogue so you don't go surfing down big waves and broaching then be broadside.
A small drogue and a small storm jib works very well
3:07 The pig's still marinating ...
It's salted lamb 😋
@@RiggingDoctor well salted by now for sure, with luxury sea salt and all! :D
Skip I respect your sailing ability, and knowledge. But as a novice sailor I been taught to prepare for all conditions. Heaving to is good if you want a break to make a cupper
But I would never risk my sails in a storm. I carry 2 old tiger with 100 metres of rope and I hang it of the anchor winch.
'This hold me in place until the storm passes.
Look at the stats of the 98 Sydney Hobart and the 79 fastnet race. Those who chose to heave to were the only boats that didnt lose crew overboard or suffer any major damage out of the fleets that were caught in those storms
@ 98 Sydney Hobart & 79 Fastnet race, the only boats caught in those storms and suffered no major damage or loss of crew were the boats that chose to heave to! 80kts of wind and 30ft seas
@joe smath Hello Joe I've done 15 ocean passages for yacht deliveries 2 up Compared to skip I am a novice. My 1st yacht delivery we heaved to in a storm at 25kns we blow the head sail.
The point I am trying to make is that is it worth the risk of damaging sails to take a break.
@@brucesinclair2981 Hoving to for a cup of tea is different to heaving to in a storm. Back the jib, let the main fly and lock the steering to steer up into the wind is different to putting out a sea anchor and heaving to without a jib and only a tri sail up.
What is the dead looking thing strung up at the back at 3:01 ????
meat!
Goat meat with natural refrigeration.
food
So you put a guy who doesn't need to use this solution to give an interview.
And has never done it.
He is not “a guy” its bloody Skip Novak show some respect
Sadly this is a very old video. Let's hope there are still some viewers interested in discussing the topic. My view as an armchair sailor:
I understand his perspective when it comes to heavy monohulls with lots of keel ballast and a low COG. But that's beyond the point, because those are also the vessels with a higher dynamic stability, anyways. They mainly have to worry about excessive structural loads, but can heave to without a serious capsize risk. It's the opposite situation for light catamarans and light monohulls: structural loads are less of an issue, but wind and waves will flip them over more easily. A low freeboard and/or vulnerable aft deck (large glass doors on catamarans) can be of additional concern.
The bow by design can absorb waves better than the stern (not to mention breaking waves flooding the aft deck / cockpit), therefore intuitively it sounds smarter to point the bow into the waves instead of running off the waves, even with a speed-limiting drogue deployed from the stern. On the other hand, with a para-anchor deployed from the bow, there is the risk that the line will go slack in the worst moment and the boat will yaw (and potentially capsize) or even trip over the stern the exact moment when a big wave with a steep surface (/breaking wave) hits. It seems like the Jordan Series Drogue, i.e. a device deployed from the stern for a different purpose, resolves the issue of the line going slack (+ weight also seems to help keeping the line under tension and the device submerged below the main wave action).
Hence the question: why not combine the two approaches into a "series parachute" deployed from the bow, i.e. ~8-10 smaller parachutes (e.g. ~ 0.6-1.0 m diameter, depending on boat weight) distributed over a 100-150 m line, with a weight at the end and a trip-line for easier retrieval?
It doesn't make sense to me that we're either talking about *huge* single devices (parachutes) or, at the other extreme, very *tiny* series devices (Jordan Drogue). Why is there nothing in between, i.e. no *medium* sized drag-creating devices in series, for the same purpose as a para-anchor, i.e. a _passive_ storm-tactic device to more or less hold the boat's position, but without the main disadvantage of parachutes, i.e. the abrupt changes between going slack and being under extreme loads? Even commercially available "single" drogues could be combined into a series for an easy DIY device. I don't see no reason why such a "series parachute" isn't the best of both worlds.
Why not a standard Jordan Drogue atypically deployed from the bow, with the bow pointing into the waves? Just like a standard para-anchor, it might not at all times create enough tension holding the bow back in order to reliably prevent the boat from yawing or tripping over the stern. With the Jordan Drogue I see the problem that the individual cones are so close to each other that each cone is in the shadow of the wake of the next cone in front (the wake has a greater diameter than the cones), like a line of trucks driving in the wind shadow. Therefore a really effective Jordan Drogue would need to be prohibitively long. For a fixed overall length - correct me if I'm wrong - I believe we can achieve more total drag with fewer bigger cones / parachutes (whilst using the same amount of material), because I don't think that the relationship between modifications in cone distance & size and total drag is linear.
Thoughts anybody?
_[this is view as a private person; I have no affiliation to any of the companies in the drogue / sea-anchor business]_
I think you'll find when hove to and wanting to deploy something from the bow you're drifting with the wind but not very fast, so while a big sea anchor provides resistance a series drogue would just sink down and get tangled around everything
@@mikecarswell4343 That should be easily fixed with a buoy at the end, or more precisely: a weight hanging down from a buoy: this way you can control how much the device can sink.
Have you read Lin and Larry Pardeys book Storm Tactics? Obviously different techniques will work better with certain boats but they honed their methods over long experience offshore sailing (including a cape horn rounding east to west) on relatively small heavy displacement cutters. Lin and Larry swore by heaving to and when the weather gets too severe they heave-to with a para-anchor off the bow. They have the para anchor line running through the bow fairleads and then a second line with a snatchblock is snatched onto the para anchor rode, and the bitter end is run aft to the sheet winch, with this line they can fine tune there hove-to angle for the most comfortable ride possible, and the slowest rate of drift. Looking forward to trying it on our boat.
I like your thinking. I sail small boats
Skip’s advice re storm tactics: go sailing in a 77 foot, 50 ton boat 😅😁 …thanks!
What is it with Novak and the carcass hanging out the stern? Seems to be a fixture.
That's his "emergency sacrifice to the ocean gods" kit.
Lamb chops for a week or a sacrifice to Neptune if shit hits the fan
Would have been nice to see warps and drogues deployed here - I'm understanding what he is saying here though and go along with his thoughts on the matter ...
Um, at 2:59, is that a CARCASS they have strung up on the bimini frame in the background? LOL! Prob just cloth but dang, that looks like some meat getting a sea salt curing!
Some will. Some won't. Guess it's up to the skip-per.
All due respect to Skip, they interview a fellow who never uses a sea anchor to talk about deploying them? Seriously...
you don't think there is some value in hearing why a person with his experience has never felt the need to deploy one?
I found this video an interesting perspective of some real world experience albeit in a lighter catamaran:
ruclips.net/video/-R05VViAep8/видео.htmlsi=JlhrxlMcnXrfkqIJ
Another sailing video with a long introduction. Skip the first 30 per cent.
True sailors are right here , good commentary. The best of the best.
Better hold fast . ARRRRRRRRrrr
Sorry, but for a smaller vessel a drogue might be the way to go. In the GGR now on a boat has been rolled over that might have survived more intact by using a drogue. I would trust one for a smaller boat and deploy early maybe when conditions are still OK but might deteriorate.
Boats stand a bigger chance of pitch poling sailing down wind bare poles than they do with heaving to or with a sea anchor
OOhh, I feel so mutch wiser!
Ron manicom
mm he makes so much sense..
Yet the ARC now insists on you carrying a drogue...
In short; know your boat!
This is the tactics I used in a storm F8-F10 in the bay of Biscay in aug.1980. Two ropes 100m each in a loop behind the boat, a small stormjib flat sheeted fore and aft for the wind to knock the boat back on course and the selfstearing gear handled the rest. The storm lasted for three days, but only once the cockpit was half filled with water. I sailed alone in my Fairey Atalanta 26 feet of plywood and twin keels. This is my film from the trip. ruclips.net/video/sJoDTu7CoRQ/видео.html
While I have much respect tor Skip, and agree with him on the subject of heaving to, with regard to this particular matter, Skip in effect admits he's not qualified to comment on their use, as he's never even attempted it. Think I'll stick to what the Pardey's have to say on the matter, given that they've actually tested and experimented with them. A pity Yachting World didn't see fit to seek their input on the subject.
I was a Pardey fan but what they did works only for the boats they experimented with. You can only work out a plan with your own boat. Too many variables to consider including boat design, wind strength sea state etc. I have hove to twice for real. Once with a sea anchor( old sail) and once when we put nothing out. As the wind or sea increases and changes you have to then re plan. Most of the time you can do nothing. I tried to get the magic slick to protect me and i had a long keeled double ender but no luck there. Could never get the boat to slide with its slick up to windward. I did learn it was better to do something than nothing as it is good for the mind to kid yourself a little bit and pretend you are master of your fate or boat even.
Talk about wave height to be rolled over .. A 30 ft can only survive a 7 ft wave broadside.
Marine engineers say any boat or ship can be rolled over by a wave equal to its beam hit broad side. My boat has only a 7'6" beam!
Skip is sailing a very big boat that would take a 100' plus wave to capsize it... not the case for most of us... drogues in this case, do a great job of slowing the boat down so it doesn't turn turtle. I think he is absolutely right for HIS case but the problem is that he's stating it as an almost (he did qualify it slightly) absolute that drogues and warps are bad when they are proven to save lives and boats. I'd expect more from Yachting Monthly.
Have a look at the stats from 79 Fastnet and 98 Sydney -Hobart disasters and you'll see all the boats that chose to heave to had less damage and no crew loss opposed to those who chose to sail downwind bare poles
hi , heave to , ? nose into the wind ? loose a finger ? vs a hurricane , if I'm at risk of death by oceanic currents a finger seams a small sacrifice , I think I understood it , moistly .
Death by ocean currents? Nope, not a thing. Being pitchpoled or rolled over by very steep breaking waves, are things.
Tried to deploy the Para anchor once
evolvkng storm off bermuda). Couldn't but banged me knee enough that they wanted to removed self from boat quote-yer gunna die mate. Obviously I'm writing this sooooo.... Not dead
😜
A side of pork on the transom?
I wouldn't wear black storm gear ever. That's a death wish. I don't need to explain myself do I?
You discredited yourself with that death wish storm gear so bad, I'm positive, I wouldn't go sailing with you for 5 minutes. And anymore, of Skip Novak rants, I'm unsubbing to. This video was complete waste of my time. Stormy seas are where the swells are so great, you can't see shore or even the boat 50 meters away. This is nonsense.
Do you actually think if he fell overboard that they would be able to find him? I dont think it matters what color you wear. Im a fan of black myself.
Satdvr27 You got a lot to learn, starting with some common sense. Don't write me, your opinionated ignorance gives me a headache. Write OSHA and tell them you like black and don't think it matters that they don't use Black for High Visibility Safety Yellow or Orange. Do you have friends as stupid as you to? You didn't have any children I hope.
You obviously have not been in rough seas before. By rough Seas, I mean 15 foot breaking seas with 50+ knots of wind. Good Luck turning your boat around in that Ace.
Satdvr27 I try not to, I listen to my VHF radio for Hurricane warnings. Its OK, you can't listen anyway to the coast guard warnings Satdvr27. Good luck falling in the murky sea with your 50+ winds and 15 foot breakers at night with your black backpacking gear on. Make sure you get a black PFD to go with it for your navy seal bullet proof vest to. LOL. Thanks for proving my point lying braggart.
Heaving to? Really? Why not deploy a drogue and go with it? I don't understand this video. Skip has never used one but asserts that it should not be used. Why not have someone who uses drogues talk about its deployment, when, and why?
I have taught the use of drogues and deployed them many times, i.e., anchors, warps, drogues, series drogues, etc. And have used them in real situations too. I fail to see why one would prefer to heave-to (under trisail, I reckon) when you could reduce the forces of apparent wind and sea state by passively or actively moving in that same direction.
In fact, I'd go further to say that a deployed drogue (active steering) is a great method for reducing yaw and improving stability. And it could be used in normal (non-storm) situations when running down sea, especially at night.
Skip's professional comment..."i've never done it before..." therefore I don't really know what I'm talking about. If it's too hazardous and too rough to deploy a drogue, then it's definitely too risky to turn the damn thing around and Hove-to, risking the worst thing...the next big wave rolling you over. The comment "nightmare of deploying it" is proof he does not know what he is talking about.
Excellent sailor but they guy has never used the gear and he's being asked to speculate about the process.
He voiced the same opinion as Jimmy Cornell, as far as I know, same reason: thinks is dangerous
He owns the gear and says theyre very trained on it and they were going to do a practive even so when he says he never used it it seems he’s talking about having to use it for safety but if he has it and says theyre well trained and references a time they were attempting a training it means he thinks there could be a time the risk is worth it so he has it but he’s emphasizing the dangerousness of it which might be valuable info even if you will use it and train on it often. You should probably do it with plenty of forethought and caution to the dangers of the loads.
@@csteingraber. Thank you for the insight Chris and taking the time to reply. Appreciate it
This advice is concerning. The title is “the trouble with using sea anchors and drogues” which, to a learner, will be overgeneralized into thinking that they are dangerous or unnecessary.
A sea anchor should be deployed after one has hove to. Heaving to correctly is fine, but having the sea anchor adds redundancy to the mix.
I have my own concerns about using a drogue, but many people have used them with much success and I don’t think that any tool should be discounted just because one sailor doesn’t like it.
Every tool in the tool box is valuable, even if you don’t always need the particular tool for a majority of situations.
Anyone who is learning, please disregard this video and learn as many tactics as you can.
Why is it that a the captain of a yacht is sensible and commanding of
respect and yet the captain of a US aircraft carrier feels the need to
video himself in the shower acting like a jackass ?
no answers given here, heaving to in the southern ocean, not recommended, wanted to know experiences of drogues down there...this vid tells not much :-(
Well looking at the stats from the 79 Fastnet race & the 98 Sydney to Hobart disaster. From both those races all the boats that chose to heave to suffered the least damage & didnt lose ant crew members.
@ Freefalling off a breaking 100ft wave your surfing down with a drogue is the day you say you should have heaved to! If you think that wont happen talk to some of the crews from the 98 Sydney Hobart where 6 crew died.
@@sailingcitrinesunset4065 have you sailed in hundred foot breaking waves? That is something I want to know how to handle in my 32 and 1/2 foot 10,000 pound displacement sloop.
@@SailingSarah Well the day you do be sure to post it on youtube, until then I'll go with the stats from two disasters where many died and some didn't
@@sailingcitrinesunset4065 okay, what were the stats? I'm assuming heaving-to is the way to go in such crazy sea conditions?
disappointing Skip, offering a definitive opinion on something you have never tried detracts from your authority.
He is pretty clear that maybe on lighter boats it might work. But for his boat, its never been necessary. Lets be honest he sails in far worse conditions than most of us.
I'd have to agree with Mon Amie. At least talk about why and properly how to use them and then go into when they shouldn't be used. Not to take away from Skip, he is an authority, much respect.
To be fair, it seems like he’s answering a question
TO be fair, it's about like having a yacht sailor explain why he will never 'put birds in the water'. If you haven't used it, how can you address 'it being dangerous' or 'it not working'? This is like a NASCAR race car driver saying 'turbos don't work'. They don't use them, so how would they know, expert-or-not, at their sport?
Why the church music? :)
Skip ahead 1 minute.
What a worthless video. The comment about streaming it off the front or stern is ridiculous. Sea anchors go off the bow and drogues off the stern. Thousands of sailors have deployed both over the years with success. How did this teach anything - it just offered an opinion albeit a very experienced one.
Lol, he has never done it= zero experience.
His words.
That is what I was thinking, why make a video about something you've never used. smh
@@hades21c I think the purpose was that he has sailed for so long and never needed it because heaving to has worked well for him.
We have sailed across the Atlantic and hove to a few times in storms, but also never deployed a sea anchor. In our last Mediterranean storm, we ripped our trysail and heaving to was out of the question. I thought about deploying the sea anchor but instead we sailed 30 miles to a protected harbor where the waters were calm and safe. I carry it and the gear for it in case we need it, but have never had the opportunity to use it. Like he said, recovery is a nightmare which keeps me from being willy nilly about putting it out over the side.
All that said, continue the video with someone else who does use them so they can give some valuable information about the actual use of them!
@@RiggingDoctor that still does not negate the fact that he made a pointless video. Had he said he had experience with them yet personally preferred not to use one, then at least there would some valuable information based on experience. However, that was not the case, thus, making the video pointless.
Hades21c agreed.
Not surprised with a conk like that..bit of a spinnaker every time you look up
could it be all the negative comments down here are from people who spent hundreds of buck on drogues and sea anchor and now feel foolish to have done so.
Haha probably but they shouldnt because Skip Novak has the gear too he just prefers not to use it. So yeah have it and dont use it. It’s like a liferaft. Have it and make sure u dont have to use it because using it is only a last option other options are better in most situations.
How big is his nose? Looks huge!
What a BORING narrative from Skip Novak of all people. Realy a case of "Much to do about Nothing" Yawn!!! (Clickbait for the advertising insurance company!!!!)
Says he on a 70ft steel boat! Listen, Sea anchors are a last ditch effort on small boats, laying a hull is not an option. And of course opinions are like assholes...everybody's got one!
His first is a 54 footer, for the record.
Thanks for posting... Avoid this video... basically opinionated discussion with accentuated head shaking. If "Skipper says so" vs illustrations and examples. Sheezum. "I am somebody, look at me! " Feeling nauseated. Problem is about presenting on youtube and subject vs S. N. ability.
depends on the boat. Without something to hold the water....in a small boat you are fucked